02 August 2011

Re the "Ground Zero" Christian cross

Offered without comment.  Via Reddit, where there is a discussion thread.


  1. "these people are the f'ing scum of the earth. can we start killing them now? few groups are filled with more hatred than the atheists."

    Wow. The complete lack of self-awareness and irony of that statement caused me to laugh out loud at work. It's not hatred if you are spouting it towards another group I guess. Just like espousing the killing of another human being is alright as long as it is done on behalf of YOUR beliefs.

  2. As an atheist I guess I should be surprised, but I'm not. It is a reminder that there are a lot of truly vile people out there in America, and some of them happen to be Christians.

  3. So many "Christians"...
    - never read the bible (surveys show atheists have a better understanding of religion than the religious themselves);
    - pick and choose what they claim to believe (divorce is ok if you're protestant, you can eat shellfish, there's no need to kill your neighbour for working on the sabbath, etc.);
    - are so confident of their god that they can do what they want to the earth and he'll fix it all if needs be;
    - and so on, and so on.

    The amount of poison that spews from faith is unquantifiable, never mind how religion numbs the mind and blinds people to logic. It is ridiculously emotive and manipulative. At least when atheists make mistakes, we know we are the one's to blame - god didn't tell us and there is no supernatural being going to make it all better and forgive us. Too many religious folk think god's forgiveness is the important bit, instead of making amends. Just look at all the priests who went to confession and had their sins "absolved".

  4. Charming sentiments from "Christians."

    Eileen Rourke needs to learn the distinction between "hanged" and "hung."

  5. As an atheist ...

    (1) The atheists complaining about the 9/11 cross are being petty. Hell, add a Star of David and even a Crescent. A 9/11 memorial isn't the place for an establishment clause battle.

    (2) Does any of this from so-called Christians surprise you? First of all, most people believe Facebook will provide them with some sort of anonymity when it actually doesn't. Second, pick a random Yahoo! article and check out the comments. These people exist regardless of race, creed, or color and they're amazingly vocal.

  6. "It is a profound moral duty not to claim for oneself what one will not concede to others."
    ~Jill Paton Walsh, British writer

  7. something to consider.. on the internet, people can be anonymous and are not necessarily who they represent themselves as.

    We have no way of knowing whether these people are trolls or not, or even non-Christians trying to make Christians look bad.

    I personally imagine at least some of the commenters would truly describe themselves as 'Christians', even if their actions did not bear that out. But which ones?

  8. Mike,

    I know Mike Holeschek, and he's not pretending to be christian. I doubt he truly believes anyone should be nailed to the cross. Conservatives seem to fantasize about violence toward anyone they perceive as an enemy, generally anyone different from them.

    Not knowing any of the others, some may be trolls and some may be genuinely violent.


    In addition to violating the Establishment Clause, it seems to be quite disrespectful to the non-christian victims. But, I agree, this is not an ideal battle and it does make the American Atheists look petty. I would also agree with allowing other religious symbols to be displayed on the property, and that may actually be a powerful memorial.

  9. The Reddit thread does not give a source. There's no way to confirm if these comments were left on a Fox News article, scraped up from around the internet, or made up (although I have no doubt that stuff like this exists). Real or fake, who cares?

    A point that may or may not be important: I believe 'direct threat' means 'I am going to find [a specific person] and kill/rape them'. There's a huge difference between that and 'they should be shot'. The police will act on the first, they will not act on the second.

    Off to spend my brainpower on something more important now.

  10. Mel - one source here -


  11. Minnesotan - ah, so Fox is yanking the hateful comments down as quickly as possible, which is entirely appropriate IMHO. The less attention that hateful, angry, idiots get, the better.

    I'm skeptical of any time someone tries to stir up a hornet's nest without sources, which is what the Reddit thread first appeared to be and why I asked about sources. Looks like it's a hornet's nest all on its own. The comments on the Fox News article are hateful, nasty, childish behavior from people who should be loving their neighbors. It's also over-dramatizing the situation to call it 'death threats', I'd really rather not see people breed more fear and anger over a few idiots spouting off. But I guess the internet loves a good hornet's nest, so who am I to get in the way?

  12. Good Christians all! Have they ever actually read or heard the teachings of Jesus? Or are they like my neighbor, who says she can do or say anything she wants because she's "saved"?

  13. if there is a god, and she's not more disgusted by followers such as these than those who don't believe...I wouldn't want to believe anyway.

  14. Wait... So...
    It's a big mob of people, baying for peaceful people with a different faith than them to be literally crucified?

    Dang. Why does that sound so familiar?

    Grah, this is going to keep me up all night. Can anyone help me? What's that scene from???


  15. "And they'll know we are Christians
    By our love, by our love
    Yes, they'll know we are Christians
    By our love."

  16. I have always said that the most 'religious' ones are the most judgmental ones....and the most dangerous ones.

  17. Obviously we can use this small sample to judge every single Christian on the planet.

  18. But why a cross? To the Romans it was a tool for intimidation and killed countless multitudes that lined roads like lightpoles. Couldn't the deciders have chosen a 'dove of peace' or some other symbol of hope instead of 'the rack' to memorialize this tragedy? Not only does it exclude me on the grounds of my chosen religeon but it is also a grotesque symbol of barbarism that I surely do not want staked over my loved one's grave!

  19. As a pastafarian, I know the Flying Spaghetti Monster will touch these people with his holy noodly appendage and show them the true way of the pirates. It is just a matter of time.
    Perhaps he is testing us and will drain the pasta water once more to annihilate the rotten ones as he did during the great flood.

    May the beer volcano reveal itself to these poor lads before it is too late.

  20. This comment has been removed by the author.

  21. As a Christian I say . . . people who spew vile comments like these clearly know nothing about the Bible or the true God. "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." I John 4:7,8 Of course, the greatest display of love to be found . . . "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." There are MANY other similar verses found throughout the New Testament. There are also hundreds of thousands of Christians who attempt to live out these verses in their lives. The majority of Bible believers would find these collected quotes revolting. My own father-in-law is agnostic/atheistic and I love him with all my heart. I would never wish death or torture on the vilest of men. Yes, there are plenty of people (of all faiths, by the way, Minnesotastan) who do commit horrendous acts in the name of God. That doesn't make God evil or faith wrong. Those people are wrong and have appropriated faith for their own agendas.

  22. Of course this is a silly comparison, for all the reasons stated above and more. You find the same murderous threatening vitriol from peace-loving leftist on other mainstream news sites. It's all intemporate, misguided and wrong, of course, but to imply that one side does it more than the other is just nonsense.

  23. Athiests, chill. Christians, relax. Drink a beer; smoke a bowl. Faith is personal. Meh.. I spout idealism...

    We should be waaaay over caring about such things one way or another.

  24. I was watching the Daily Show last night and I think I got a better understanding of what they're talking about: it is in fact, a piece of rubble shaped like a cross that the Atheists are protesting against, not something people are going to build on the site. This in turn actually makes the Atheists look more like those so-called "Christians" braying for the blood. In either case, either side of the argument looks just as foolish and as disrespectful as the other side, especially when you get to the comments made by the President of the Atheist. Here's the clip in case you're interested, as well as a news article and a second clip from The Daily Show that aired September 11, 2001:

    And by the way, I am not religious on any context, I just think this should be noted as well.

  25. 1 Corinthians: 9-10

    "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

    9 is the part quoted by those hateful psychos of Westboro Baptist. 10 is one of my favorite snippets of proof that people like that are hypocrites and ignorant of what the bible actually says.

    I'm an atheist.

  26. You're welcome, but I goofed a little. It's 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Oops.

    I also wonder if they'd understand the word "revilers." Even now I still prefer the heavy-handed patina of antiquity that is the KJV. Did you know it has all of those "thous" and things like that to 'sound old'? That kind of English was at least 50 years out-of-date when it was new.

  27. And these are the people who from time to time push for us to have another Constitutional Convention.

    And go around shooting Congresswomen and Federal judges.

    And bring guns to political campaign stops.

    And they don't like Liberals at all.

    These people wouldn't even consider it murder.

    Europe did the religious wars thing for 1600 years at least. Only after they'd done WWI and WWII to themselves did they finally wake up and walk out of the churches, becoming non-secular. With non-secular (read: "atheist") came a greatly increased tolerance for those who were not exactly like you and the three people you meet at the diner and with whom you solve the problems of the world. Non-seculars solve them in other ways than guns ---- They found out guns don't solve anything, all they do is exacerbate the problem.

    And it so few learn that lesson except the hard way.

    The religious impulse, which is theoretically supposed to be a civilizing influence actually more often does the opposite. Mostly, I believe this is because religion demands a suspension of reason. As evidenced by those comments.

    I am almost embarrassed to be associated with my own human race, when I read stuff like that.

    It IS the kind of irrationality that was common within the right-wing in Germany between WWI and the end of WWII. I am scared for my country.

  28. Mike -

    Re "We have no way of knowing whether these people are trolls or not, or even non-Christians trying to make Christians look bad."

    I would point out some realities of recent years:

    1. In years gone by restaurant owners would shill their own web sites.

    2. Lee Atwater and Karl Rove.

    3. Active Republicans are emailed "Daily Talking Points" every day, which they are required to adherer to, to stay "on message."

    There is no real reason to assume that none of those comments was planted. After Atwater and Rove the biggest mistake Democrats/Liberals/Progressives make is thinking that no one would stoop so low. I know Atwater on his deathbed was actually sorry for having done all the sh*t he did. Rove won't be. And who can believe that there will not be a successor to Rove?

    I think on one of my comments elsewhere on TYWKIWDBI I said this:

    "I am afraid for my country." Duh.

  29. Over the years, I have more and more come to see Christianity as a cult, one with several different flavors, but a cult, nevertheless.

    That may seem an unfair generalization, but I don't say it lightly. They believe in entity that no one sane has dialogued with since Moses and Saul, nor seen ever. If kids do that, we call it fantasy. If adults do that we lock them up, for their own safety. I tried to go that route, but my common sense and my reason and logic kept getting in the way.

    Like the Moonies, Christianity pushes people to abdicate responsibility for their own lives, giving it over instead to the priest, preacher or Pope. But especially to Jesus - and it turns out there is no documentary evidence for his existence. (The one and only piece of such possible evidence
    was long ago proven to be a later insertion into the document.)

    The more I see, the more I want to run for the hills when Christians are about.

  30. I apologize and ask for forgiveness for these [and any other Christian who does not truly show God's love] hypocritical christians. I know that as a Christian, I am supposed to love on people [that means anyone, even someone I don't quite like very much...]. They know not what they do...


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