"Not until eight o'clock tonight, Doctor."The book was published in 1962; the setting of the story is somewhere in rural England at an unspecified time, probably in the 1940s-1960s. I'm wondering whether the Mister/Doctor reference is an archaic use from an earlier time or whether it is still current, whether the application was used just for those performing surgery or extended to other medical physicians, and whether this convention extends beyond England/Great Britain/the British Isles/the British Commonwealth.
Stung by his tone Stephen wanted, not for the first time, to point out that surgeons were addressed as "Mister." He was saved from this pedantic pettiness by a realization of its futility...
08 October 2010
Are surgeons properly addressed as "Mister" ??
Last night I finished reading a P. D. James mystery ("Cover Her Face," her debut novel and the initial appearance of Adam Dalgliesh). Near the end I encountered this curious interchange:
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When I was studying German in high school my teacher informed us that in Germany and most of Europe it was customary to refer to anyone with any doctorate degree as "Doctor", and not just physicians. Not relevant to this, but interesting.
ReplyDeleteAs a US physician, I was told by one of my British colleague that it is a solely British term for only surgeons (not internists). It had to to do roughly with the fact that early surgeons were barbers and were not formally trained as physicians or maybe weren't part of the Royal College of Physicians. That all changed, however, and the Mister formality was retained, maybe for pride/group solidarity/status?. Apparently, if you go to the UK and address a surgeon as "Doctor" he or she will take offense.
ReplyDeleteIn the UK, lay folk understand this and apparently it isn't much of a big deal. This isn't really well known on either side of the lake, even among physicians (I didn't know until a few months ago many years after becoming a physician).
I live in Ireland and here the Mr./Dr. divide is observed quite strictly in the medical hierarchy - very much as in the UK.
ReplyDeleteMedical doctors are generally referred to as Dr. [name] but once they rise the the level of "consultant" the revert to Mr. [name], presumably to draw the distinction between themselves and their underlings. They don't *have* to be surgeons, but the majority of specialities are surgical so most Mrs. are surgeons.
Yes. In the UK, surgeons used to be LESS THAN doctors (who were educated and gave out medicines and didn't get their hands dirty like those plebeian surgeons).
ReplyDeleteEven though they are more like the US now, where they are doctors PLUS extra training, it seems that the term has persisted.
There's also some hierarchy of "nurses" and "sisters" and "midwives" and "health visitors" and so on.... I was too confused and luckily, too healthy, to have to deal with it much when I lived over there.
@jaundicedaye Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but that seems to be common here in the US as well. I work in academia, and "Dr. So-and-so" is the accepted formal way of addressing a person with a PhD, whether their degree is in biochemistry, political science, or Russian literature.
ReplyDeleteThe exception seems to be lawyers, who go by Mr. (yes, or Mrs. or Ms., depending), even though they hold a doctorate degree. This, I understand, is because it's a relatively unique American phenomenon for the Juris Doctorate degree; in most other nations, sufficient training to practice law is obtained at the bachelor's degree level.
Which is a real bummer, because after all this money my husband and I are paying to put him through law school, I'd at least like him to have a fancy name to show for it! ;-)
Also in Australia, when a doctor rises to the level of a specialist surgeon they drop the "doctor" and go back to "mister", I suppose to distinguish that they are at a level of specialty above that of a GP.
ReplyDeleteTo clarify, I was told in Germany and much of Europe the honorific "Doctor" is used on the street and not just in the university when referring to a PhD.
ReplyDeleteI lived in Germany for four years and in Japan for six years. In both countries, people who knew me were very regular as addressing me as "Herr Doktor" or "Hakase" (the Japanese equivalent). Interestingly, I have often noted that some physicians in this country seem to resent/disdain non-physicians with that title. I have a BA, MA, MS, and PhD.
ReplyDeleteUK definitely current. A surgeon starts out in medical school as "Mister", (Well, assuming that's a male surgeon)studies for a lot of years, and eventually gets the coveted title of "Doctor" ... so he then studies a few more years until he qualifies as a surgeon, and becomes entitled to be referred to as "Mister" once more. And if you call him "Doctor", he'll frown and feel insulted.
ReplyDeleteOh dear. It's so complicated. As for the many female surgeons, what then? Miss or Mrs, of course.
Irish surgeon here. For women it's Ms. or Miss, depending on the surgeon - usually Ms. in my experience.
ReplyDeleteAny surgeon I know would be insulted to be called Doctor!
A lot of misinformation going on here. I'm a UK medical student, and this is how it goes:
ReplyDeletePhysicians are doctors, even if they are Consultant Physicians.
Surgeons are 'Mr'; if female it's basically her choice as to 'Miss' or 'Ms' (I've come across both).
Doctors who are on surgical training rotations would be 'Dr' and would only progress to 'Mr' when they completed their surgical training.
Anonymous: You say there's a lot of misinformation here, but you fail to point out what that is.
ReplyDeleteLet me clarify, if I can,... All surgeons must be physicians, i.e. doctors of medicine, first, whereas not all doctors of medicine are surgeons.
A trainee surgeon is still addressed as "doctor" until qualifying as a Member, MRCS, or Fellow, FRCS of the Royal College of Surgeons, or its equivalent in Scotland or Ireland
This may also have changed (or be more strictly limited to academia), but when my mother was in Germany, not only were all PhDs called "doktor", but if you have multiple PhDs, you may get one "doktor" per - "Herr Doktor Doktor [Whomever]".
ReplyDeleteWell, doctor was originally a term from the latin for "teacher" and was reserved for someone who had recieved a Ph.D or Doctorate in Philosophy, the term "doctor" as a healthcare professional only came into popular usage when Medicine became a subject of academic study, therefore they were a Doctor in Medicine. It's a complex term and there are many nuances, such as Mister for Surgeons apparently came into being in the 1800s when Surgeons were given formal status by the creation of the Royal College of Surgeons
ReplyDeleteWhen I taught in Germany, I found the term "Herr Doktor Professor" interesting. The use of all my titles at once was a bit awkward. It always sort of reminded me of a bad Jerry Lewis routine, "Hey Mister Doctor Professor!"
ReplyDeleteIn Malaysia as well, surgeons are addressed as MR. or MS. It's not compulsory, though, and calling me Dr doesn't make me frown.
ReplyDelete