Most European languages distinguish between a formal and an informal you. French has tu and vous, Spanish tú and usted, and Portuguese even has three gradations (tu, você and o senhor/a senhora). But each culture navigates the resulting ambiguities in its own way. And Germans seem particularly vulnerable...In my German classes, Herr Otto explained that "Du" existed, but that we should always use "Sie." That was many years ago, and I've never used "Du" in conversation. Native German-speaking readers are invited to comment, and I'm curious as to what is taught in high-school and college classrooms these days.
Today’s Germans have been eagerly importing informality from America, crediting its prevailing casualness—in places such as Silicon Valley—with creativity, productivity and modernity generally. So the Germans, like the Swedes and Danes, are increasingly dispensing with the formal second person even among strangers...
In a self-consciously American environment such as Starbucks, the transition is all but complete; its baristas in Berlin use Du as naturally as though they were saying "have a great day" in Seattle. Other environments cling to a more Germanic, rules-based approach. At the front desk of a vacation resort in rural Mecklenburg, I received, along with our keys, a one-page form instructing us that we were to use Du throughout the grounds, with all guests and personnel. We promised to obey, and partially did.
The form may sound ridiculous, but it’s trickier when the protocol must be inferred spontaneously. A flow chart has been circulating on German Facebook pages that sets out to clarify in PowerPoint style who may initiate the Du with whom and when. In a nutshell: it’s still advisable that the junior should wait for the senior and the male for the female, and that all those confused avoid making any utterance. Dilbert types in the German corporate world share wrenching tales of already being at Du with a peer until one of them gets promoted.
11 January 2013
Germans are shifting from "Sie" to "Du"
The complexity is explained in an Intelligent Life column:
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FWIW, I've noticed that Latin Americans seldom use the formal 'usted' form, preferring the informal 'tu' even for God!
ReplyDeleteThe informal forms--thou, thee, thy--are used for addressing God in English as well.
DeleteThe rules printed in bold basically apply. And there are situations, where you NEVER use the "du", where you even can be sued for using it (policemen, judges, doctors (no lawsuit, though)).
ReplyDeleteAnother distinction is regional: I am from the south, and there, a more formal approach is used. The West around Cologne or Berlin in the East has always been more colloquial. Hamburg again is the stronghold of formality, and so on. It aint't as easy as one might think.
Oh, and did I mention, that it also depends on your social strata or your (self-perceived) education?
in certain social circles, the 'du' is fully established, one such example is for climbers.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I am quite happy to use 'sie' with random encounters, even for younger or socially lower placed adults (for example: The 19 year old girl at the bakery checkout). However, in German, it is quite possible to navigate around the whole topic, if you use somewhat stilted language:
Instead of asking 'what did you eat for dinner?' you could say 'what was had for dinner in the surname-household?'
I don't take offense when people use the Du straight away, and generally, I try to get onto du-terms pretty quickly, by just using the very straightforward 'Ich bin der Matthias'
I'd also say much relies on if it's a meeting with someone under private/social circumstances or if it's business/public. I'd say 'Sie' to a salesperson, a newly introduced business-partner or to an older beggar on the street. If I'm introduced to someone at a private party, where many friends are already around, I'll say "Du". If I'm, for example, on a concert of a band I enjoy and get to know someone, I'll say "Du" also (exception might be if it's classical music or with all in all older audience - thou, if I'd get to know a 70 year old on a Punk concert, I'd say "Du" for sure).
ReplyDeleteMuch depends on an initial feeling of "same social status" or "possible friend?". But: I'm also saying Du to my (60 year old) boss and my collegues.
Also, I'm living around Cologne.
As a Dutchman working in Germany they tend to see me as the straightforward type. I've had some awkward reactions to the 'ich bin der ...' mentioned above. Generally unknown people are still 'sie' to me, but it greatly depends on the circles. In university, the biologists are usually 'du', but the chemists are all 'sie'. What might work: if they wear jeans, 'du' will do. But in the end you never can tell.
ReplyDeleteHeh! Don't try this in France. Use "tu" with the wrong person, and they'll give you a glare that'll wither your eyebrows AND pin your ears to your head!
ReplyDeleteIn a way, the distinction between Du and Sie isn't necessarily as clear-cut as it seems: For example, I have always found it perfectly possible to game the German language to such an extent that with some people (friends' parents, for instance) I could avoid both pronouns for many years, thus lazily/cowardly avoiding this social connundrum. Also, with workmen/mechanics etc., where I want to maintain informality without being rude, "Ihr", as in the plural of "Du", can work well. In any case, I'm currently starting to realize that I need to stop saying Du to strangers my age. Another side effect of aging I wasn't prepared for...
ReplyDeleteHaha, so true!
DeleteAlso Du is not necessarily easier, simpler or more uncomplicated that Sie.
For example in some workplaces Du is en vogue whereas others go with the more formal Sie. Imagine a boss harshly critizing someones work: Using Du this becomes quite hurting - using Sie it is a lot more distanced and thus professional.
This is why I like the existance of Sie in german: It's a lot easier and uncomplicated. The verbal equivalent to a handshake, because I don't want just anyone to kiss me.
"Sie, Sie legen mir im Herzen ..."
ReplyDeleteLurker111
In Swedish, "du" instead of "ni" is nearly universal. I'm sure I'm biased here, but it seems like the Scandinavians do something, and twenty or so years later, everyone else catches on to it! Which means that we'll all be using our garbage for power sometime in the next twenty years.
ReplyDeleteIn universities, the use of tú is preferred in Spanish, rather than usted. Usted comes from the Middle Ages Vuestra Merced, meaning Your Mercy. The philosophy is that usted is elitist and should be avoided in the interests of promoting equality.
ReplyDeleteItalian has gone the same way...in college I read Guido Crepax's "Neutron," in which the surprise use of "tu" instantly changed a friendship into a passionate romance. Years later the cute Italian comic shop owner surprisingly addressed me as "tu" and suddenly...nothing happened. Pfui.
ReplyDeleteIf a 'Barista' were to talk to me using the 'Du'-form I would certainly protest. But then I am not Starbucks customer anyway, so they can't lose me a customer for that.
ReplyDeleteThere is a time and place (and company) for 'Du' and a time and place for 'Sie'.
It is not my impression that there was a major shift from Sie to Du in the last twenty years. At least not comparable to what happened between 1970 and 1990.
When I took German this summer in university (McGill), we were taught Sie but told that it's rarely used in Germany anymore (in the big cities at least, especially amongst the young people) so emphasis was placed on perfecting du, but knowing Sie in case a situation arose where we would need to say Sie.
ReplyDeleteI think that it's a bit like French: In Quebec/Manitoba, we use tu instead of vous, regardless of who we're speaking to yet in France or with people from France, using vous is almost obligatory.
OK I just went to one of the Cologne Starbucks to test this. The young barista was calling everyone in line Sie, and when I asked if they are adopting a corporate "du culture" she said no, she'll only use du for young people, or in rare cases, particularly happy-looking people who gave their first name for their drink cup.
ReplyDeleteI asked my German officemates and they said they see this at IKEA, where employees are told to use only du, and they hate it. They don't want this part of German culture to change.
My husband who's German feels the same, adamant that Sie is used for adult strangers. Only use du if you want to insult someone.
We hired a general contractor and he's exactly my age, and sometimes we share a beer, and at those times it's really hard for me to remember to use Sie with him, but I must, because I employ him.
I've tried to get my favorite checker at the grocery store to call me du, but she won't. I'll try harder.
Thank you for doing (and reporting on) the research, anon. You represent the type of readership I enjoy having on this blog.
DeleteGood for Germany, if so! "Sie" actually means "They." Saying to someone, "Do they speak German?" is preposterous. "Do y'all speak German" (the plural form) at least has the historical reason behind it that this was how one addressed one's parents--one spoke for both--and how one spoke to authorities.
ReplyDeleteUkrainian/Russian, unfortunately, are going in the opposite direction, and where it was more the norm for peers to address each other as "du" (actually, ty), I've heard grandmothers call 18-year-old vendors "Ihr" (y'all, you plural). I called my students du when they were studying under me but after they were out on their own a few years they were quite different people and often became ihr (ty and vy).
The distinction between du and ihr is an extremely valuable one and it's sad we don't have it in English anymore.
Incidentally, God is called du, ty, or thou, not because it's a special holy form, but because in olden days EVERYBODY was du, ty, or thou in the singular. But I shouldn't be sitting here writing this, I should be getting ready for church.
"Do y'all speak German" (the plural form)...
DeleteIIRC, when I lived in Texas (several decades ago), the accepted plural form of "y'all" was "all y'all." Of course this may have been a regional usage.
Actually, "Sie" is not "they" - "sie" is "her" or "they". So "Was wollen sie von mir?" and "Was wollen Sie von mir?" are two very different things (what do they want from me vs what do you want from me)
DeleteAnd afaik, God is called "Du" since Jesus introduced the concept of abba, which doesn't have anything to do with swedish pop but with the concept of a "dear (close) father". The idea to call God a "Du" hence makes a lot of sense.
DeleteInterestingly, parents were called "Sie" in german until the 1970ies (? exact date not known).