I honestly don't understand how people who are extremely intelligent believe this. I'm quite certain that most of the people who comment here have far higher IQ's than I do. But this is ludicrous. Of course, you will get a bill for it! We all will. And the middle class will be hurt the most by it. And the quality of medical care will plummet. And thousands of doctors will leave the medical field. There's no such thing as a free lunch. Someone ALWAYS pays for it.
Former MENSA member here who believes this is possible. There is no quick answer I can offer that will be satisfactory to you, and I don't have time for a proper long answer. I spent ten years in Dallas working at Parkland Memorial Hospital, where few or none of the patients had insurance. We all paid for their care then (1970s), and we all continue to pay for everyone's health care now. The problem then and now has been that we pay for the care plus we pay for a convoluted, outrageously complex system of insurance that requires salesmen and advertising and filling of forms and copays and deducibles. Your claims that the quality of medical care will plummet and that doctors will... do what instead??... is blatant fearmongering. If you think single-payer health care is impossible or too expensive, how to you explain WilliamRocket's experience in New Zealand. Or how do you think medical care is provided in Portugal. Or the Netherlands? It's being done - care as good as ours and at a fraction of the cost.
Just to back that up, after a few heart attacks I had a triple bypass in May and the cost to me was a little loss in income from not working for 6 months while I recuperate, as the government gives me not quite as much as I would have earned if I was able. Oh, this is in New Zealand.
Nice to have a sane social net, unlike here is the US where, unless you were a multi-millionaire or richer, you will have to declare bankruptcy and possibly lose your house (depending on state; in California, your house is protected from bill collectors by law).
There is too much evidence to keep promoting the lie that "it doesn't work" or "it's too expensive" in other countries. It actually costs less (yes, including taxes, and especially when you include lost productivity), wait times are usually shorter, and life expectancy is better in all those other countries. We have third world medical statistics in the U.S., and personal/family medical costs is the number one reason for bankruptcy. We should be ashamed of ourselves.
"every major country"? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_France "The entire population must pay compulsory health insurance." and "...a fee of €16–18 ($20–25) per day for hospital stays (considered to be the "hotel" part of the hospital stay; that is, an amount people would pay anyway for food, etc.) and for expensive procedures." I believe that most countries in EU are similar though not the UK.
LOL, do you have any idea how much a single night in a hospital costs in the US?! The above is a bargain beyond belief that probably wouldn't pay for more than a couple of hours here! "The social security system covers 70% of the cost of treatment. All citizens pay into the state's health insurance system. ... One thing that makes the French system wonderful is that long-term medical problems are 100% covered by the state." Oh, and the insurance is about 10 euro a month. https://transferwise.com/us/blog/healthcare-system-in-france
I live in Canada and did not realise that the quality of my health care was so substandard. Probably because so many doctors are working as waiters and hairdressers. Seriously, our neighbours to the south need to change their system immediately. No, it is not free but an illness or accident is also not a financially crippling experience. Snow removal, street lights, public schools, libraries, fire and police service, road reparations, etc. etc. are also not free. All governments waste money but providing health care for all should be a priority and would be money well spent. Just look at your military budget and then tell everyone how ludicrous the concept of Medicare is.
Here's the part that the politicians are having trouble saying &/or explaining. Will my taxes go up? I'm sure they will. Will it be ~ $100.00/week? If so, I'm personally at break even. I'm currently paying $62.00/week for medical insurance, $2.50/week for dental insurance, and $30.00/week for my "flexible spending account" to pay a small portion of the fees the above insurances do not cover, like my $100/month prescription co-pays for routine blood pressure & thyroid meds. Not to mention that my employer just might find a few extra pennies to pay us if they no longer have to pay their $700/month portion of my health insurance. And I'm a single person-let's not get into the costs for adding children & spouses to the plan.
I have what many would consider decent insurance but could easily go bankrupt if I actually got sick.
The point nobody addresses is that OUR government is absolutely terrible at managing...anything. I have no issue with healthcare reform, but putting the government in charge of it in the USA is a disaster waiting to happen. Maybe it does work elsewhere in the world, but maybe those countries have less corrupt and wasteful governing bodies. Maybe they have more accountability for their leaders. I just don't see it going well here based on past experience of our politicians making promises.
No one ever claimed that this will be free. It will cost money. Tax money. As in... the money that We The People are supposed to pay, to a government Of The People, so they can use it For The People. Countries around the world can, and have, made this work. So can we. All we have to do is realize that our government is run by corrupt oligarchs who don't care about The People, and We The People need to kick them out in favor of those who will work for us like they're supposed to.
Response from a 60 year old American. Right now, for-profit corporations control you. I'd rather "be controlled" by someone I can vote out of power, not someone who has a million dollar a year lifetime job as long as he keeps his stockholders rich and happy.
British person here. Bloody love having the NHS and free on arrival healthcare for all. Having spoken to friends none of us would want to lose that and we would never want to live somewhere like the US. We really are astonished at such a system and terrified that the same will come about here.
UK here. I have a skilled professional job in healthcare and earn about £2200 a month. Out of this, (before it reaches my bank account) tax, healthcare, national and company pension contributions and student loan repayments are deducted to the tune of about £550.
All of these taxes and deductions come to about 25% of my 'earned' pay, but as pretty much everyone on a salary wage in the UK uses this kind of system, it's just a natural fact of working that your 'take home' pay is always less than your 'earned' pay.
Anyway.
Of my deductions, roughly £200 (i think it's more like £185, but I'll round up) go towards National Insurance. This is healthcare, social care, retirement plan, disability money if you're unable to work, unemployment money, child benefit, etc etc etc.
And because that £200 a month is deducted from my pay before it hits my bank account, i pay £0 to see a GP, or a specialist, or a consultant at the hospital. I pay £0 for tests and imaging. I paid £0 for the 4 major surgeries I've had and the months of physio afterwards. I pay £0 for emergency care and £0 for routine care. Zero. Nothing.
I honestly don't understand how people who are extremely intelligent believe this. I'm quite certain that most of the people who comment here have far higher IQ's than I do. But this is ludicrous. Of course, you will get a bill for it! We all will. And the middle class will be hurt the most by it. And the quality of medical care will plummet. And thousands of doctors will leave the medical field. There's no such thing as a free lunch. Someone ALWAYS pays for it.
ReplyDeleteFormer MENSA member here who believes this is possible. There is no quick answer I can offer that will be satisfactory to you, and I don't have time for a proper long answer. I spent ten years in Dallas working at Parkland Memorial Hospital, where few or none of the patients had insurance. We all paid for their care then (1970s), and we all continue to pay for everyone's health care now. The problem then and now has been that we pay for the care plus we pay for a convoluted, outrageously complex system of insurance that requires salesmen and advertising and filling of forms and copays and deducibles. Your claims that the quality of medical care will plummet and that doctors will... do what instead??... is blatant fearmongering. If you think single-payer health care is impossible or too expensive, how to you explain WilliamRocket's experience in New Zealand. Or how do you think medical care is provided in Portugal. Or the Netherlands? It's being done - care as good as ours and at a fraction of the cost.
DeleteJust to back that up, after a few heart attacks I had a triple bypass in May and the cost to me was a little loss in income from not working for 6 months while I recuperate, as the government gives me not quite as much as I would have earned if I was able. Oh, this is in New Zealand.
ReplyDeleteNice to have a sane social net, unlike here is the US where, unless you were a multi-millionaire or richer, you will have to declare bankruptcy and possibly lose your house (depending on state; in California, your house is protected from bill collectors by law).
DeleteThere is too much evidence to keep promoting the lie that "it doesn't work" or "it's too expensive" in other countries. It actually costs less (yes, including taxes, and especially when you include lost productivity), wait times are usually shorter, and life expectancy is better in all those other countries. We have third world medical statistics in the U.S., and personal/family medical costs is the number one reason for bankruptcy. We should be ashamed of ourselves.
ReplyDelete"every major country"?
ReplyDeleteSee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_France
"The entire population must pay compulsory health insurance."
and
"...a fee of €16–18 ($20–25) per day for hospital stays (considered to be the "hotel" part of the hospital stay; that is, an amount people would pay anyway for food, etc.) and for expensive procedures."
I believe that most countries in EU are similar though not the UK.
LOL, do you have any idea how much a single night in a hospital costs in the US?! The above is a bargain beyond belief that probably wouldn't pay for more than a couple of hours here! "The social security system covers 70% of the cost of treatment. All citizens pay into the state's health insurance system. ... One thing that makes the French system wonderful is that long-term medical problems are 100% covered by the state." Oh, and the insurance is about 10 euro a month. https://transferwise.com/us/blog/healthcare-system-in-france
DeleteI live in Canada and did not realise that the quality of my health care was so substandard. Probably because so many doctors are working as waiters and hairdressers. Seriously, our neighbours to the south need to change their system immediately. No, it is not free but an illness or accident is also not a financially crippling experience. Snow removal, street lights, public schools, libraries, fire and police service, road reparations, etc. etc. are also not free. All governments waste money but providing health care for all should be a priority and would be money well spent. Just look at your military budget and then tell everyone how ludicrous the concept of Medicare is.
ReplyDeleteHere's the part that the politicians are having trouble saying &/or explaining. Will my taxes go up? I'm sure they will. Will it be ~ $100.00/week? If so, I'm personally at break even. I'm currently paying $62.00/week for medical insurance, $2.50/week for dental insurance, and $30.00/week for my "flexible spending account" to pay a small portion of the fees the above insurances do not cover, like my $100/month prescription co-pays for routine blood pressure & thyroid meds. Not to mention that my employer just might find a few extra pennies to pay us if they no longer have to pay their $700/month portion of my health insurance. And I'm a single person-let's not get into the costs for adding children & spouses to the plan.
ReplyDeleteI have what many would consider decent insurance but could easily go bankrupt if I actually got sick.
The point nobody addresses is that OUR government is absolutely terrible at managing...anything. I have no issue with healthcare reform, but putting the government in charge of it in the USA is a disaster waiting to happen. Maybe it does work elsewhere in the world, but maybe those countries have less corrupt and wasteful governing bodies. Maybe they have more accountability for their leaders. I just don't see it going well here based on past experience of our politicians making promises.
ReplyDeleteNo one ever claimed that this will be free. It will cost money. Tax money. As in... the money that We The People are supposed to pay, to a government Of The People, so they can use it For The People. Countries around the world can, and have, made this work. So can we. All we have to do is realize that our government is run by corrupt oligarchs who don't care about The People, and We The People need to kick them out in favor of those who will work for us like they're supposed to.
ReplyDeleteIt really is actually that simple.
Advice from a 77 year old American: The more Government gives you the more they control you!
ReplyDeleteResponse from a 60 year old American. Right now, for-profit corporations control you. I'd rather "be controlled" by someone I can vote out of power, not someone who has a million dollar a year lifetime job as long as he keeps his stockholders rich and happy.
DeleteBritish person here. Bloody love having the NHS and free on arrival healthcare for all. Having spoken to friends none of us would want to lose that and we would never want to live somewhere like the US. We really are astonished at such a system and terrified that the same will come about here.
ReplyDeleteThe real question is, Will my kids still get suckers and stickers after their appointment?
ReplyDeleteAs long as the senators, representatives, and the the president are under the same healthcare system, I'll give it a try.
If USA spends less on guns and transfers the money to healthcare...
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyBNmecVtdU
Who said this? Eisenhower (1961)
UK here. I have a skilled professional job in healthcare and earn about £2200 a month. Out of this, (before it reaches my bank account) tax, healthcare, national and company pension contributions and student loan repayments are deducted to the tune of about £550.
ReplyDeleteAll of these taxes and deductions come to about 25% of my 'earned' pay, but as pretty much everyone on a salary wage in the UK uses this kind of system, it's just a natural fact of working that your 'take home' pay is always less than your 'earned' pay.
Anyway.
Of my deductions, roughly £200 (i think it's more like £185, but I'll round up) go towards National Insurance. This is healthcare, social care, retirement plan, disability money if you're unable to work, unemployment money, child benefit, etc etc etc.
And because that £200 a month is deducted from my pay before it hits my bank account, i pay £0 to see a GP, or a specialist, or a consultant at the hospital. I pay £0 for tests and imaging. I paid £0 for the 4 major surgeries I've had and the months of physio afterwards. I pay £0 for emergency care and £0 for routine care. Zero. Nothing.
For less than 10% of my wage.
Incredible. And unfortunately unimaginable in the minds of most Americans.
Delete